Episode 1: How customer references win big B2B tech deals

Host 0:03
Welcome to The Advocast, where we discuss all things customer advocacy. Discover the latest trends, best practices, and tangible advice as we talk to some of the brightest and sharpest professionals in the industry. Learn how to turn your customers into advocates to drive sales leads and make a positive impact on revenue.

Host 0:31
Hey Vlado, welcome to The Advocast. It's lovely to have you here.

Vlado Rukavina 0:36
Hi, Melis. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure being here, and I'm looking forward to talking to you about advocacy and all the advocacy themes.

Host 0:47
Awesome. So, for the ones who don't know you and are listening — can you introduce yourself really quickly?

Vlado Rukavina 0:56
Yes, sure, of course. My name is Vlado Rukavina. I come from Belgrade, Serbia. I've been working for Wings4U for, I think, a year and a half or more, as a global advocacy specialist on the Microsoft account. I've been covering products and advocacy for products such as Microsoft Azure, Dynamics 365 business apps, and Microsoft consulting services as well. So it's a really interesting portfolio of technical products. What else should I say? I love cats and dogs. I think I'm a kind of collector of abandoned animals.

Host 1:53
That's actually really nice to hear.

Vlado Rukavina 1:55
Yeah, thanks. So if anyone wants to adopt a kitten, I have like four of them now next to this building, so please leave your contacts for wonderful kittens here.

Host 2:10
Awesome. So anyone close by to Vlado can adopt a kitten from him. Wonderful.

So Vlado, you gave a really nice view into what you're doing, and I really want to understand what got you started in customer advocacy. How did you come across such a niche industry in itself? Not everyone understands customer advocacy, but also the role that you're doing with all of the technical products you were talking about — it's very extensive. Can you tell us more about that?

Vlado Rukavina 2:46
Well, I think it has a really deep connection with my previous working experience and with my personal passions. So let me first make that connection with my previous experience.

I worked for Microsoft here in Serbia for two and a half years in the Microsoft Philanthropies branch. That is the part of Microsoft dedicated to helping nonprofits and charity organizations get all the support and donations they can. I was in the role of Philanthropies Coordinator for Microsoft for a year and a half, and during that time I was not only working on charities and nonprofits — I also worked in a Microsoft communications team, where I dealt with communications, PR, and other initiatives to support the Microsoft initiatives.

During that time I was heavily involved in PR for the Microsoft education side, working to promote customer solutions and the voices of the customer to the public eye in the 24 countries of the Microsoft multi-country region, which is Central and Eastern Europe. So my first contact with customer advocacy came through the Voice of the Customer program and customer stories, which were really a great source of PR material for our communications team. We already had the assets, and we used them to promote the stories of the customer and Microsoft to the public, to the press, and to the media in general. That's one of my first touches with customer advocacy.

And the other, the personal connection to customer advocacy, is really my personal passion to help other people. That's why I started doing Microsoft Philanthropies at first. And by doing advocacy, you really are helping all sides of the deal. You help your customers by spreading the word of their success, but you also have an opportunity to help your employees, because when they see that their work has been cherished and promoted at this level — at the level of creating assets out of their most successful projects — then you can see on their faces that they really appreciate having been promoted, and they were really, really happy. I can confirm that firsthand, because I was involved in some of the promotions of customer advocacy stories while I was in that position in the communications and philanthropies team.

Host 6:44
That's wonderful. It gives a really nice view into who you are as well — from the kittens, but also your job in the philanthropies organization. So thank you for sharing, I really appreciate that.

So when I think about your journey from the philanthropies team, being involved with creating the stories and sharing them, amplifying them through all of the marketing and sales activities most likely, and then going into the reference management job — I'm sure that you have proud moments, and most likely there are a couple of them. But is there one that comes to mind when I ask this, that you can share with

Vlado Rukavina 7:34
us? Yeah, sure. And I think I already commented on your fantastic Customer Stories Friday, which has started, and I can say now it is one of my favorite trends on all of LinkedIn.

Host 7:48
Thank you.

Vlado Rukavina 7:48
Yeah, it's an amazing space, and everyone should just drop by the hashtag Customer Stories Friday. That's a hashtag, right?

So I already shared this one: my very first contact with a customer story was when I was just starting as an intern at Microsoft Serbia. There was this general manager who came here to have a global meeting with all the employees, and the folks from the office who had been working hard with a big energy supplier — an energy and utility supplier here in Serbia. They had this story, with video and infographics and everything, and they presented it and played the whole story and talked about it. You could see on their faces that they were so proud of this project, and that's when I was first exposed to the power of advocacy. Because you just could see on their faces how proud they were, because they had been working so hard on this project, and somebody came and asked them to film an evidence video about what they did and how they did it.

I won't go into the technical details now, but they were using machine learning to predict the cost and spend of electrical energy, and they really improved the process for the customer, because they managed to replace an old program from way back in the 70s that predicted the weather and, based on that, predicted how much consumption of electrical energy there would be. With Microsoft Azure, they managed to drop the margin of error to less than 1%, and before that it was like 15%. That 14 or 15% margin of error saved the customer millions of dollars in spending on buying or selling electrical energy.

So having seen that one from the perspective of the people who had been working on that story — and then seeing that it was really easy to present, because you had the evidence, you had the story, the film, the video — it really rang with me. At that time I was not so proficient with those technical terms and everything, and it was so easily explained that I was like, how do you say, eureka! Bam. You have something complicated, and then it's presented in such an easy and digestible way that even a person who is not so technically proficient can see the impact of the product and of the service of the team. Maybe that's one of the greatest ones for me, in that sense, because it was the first one.

Host 11:15
Okay, that's very interesting. It kind of brings it into perspective, right? When you're so close to advocacy, you sometimes miss the endpoints of it, the impact that you have on the organization, but also on the end customer and the user, where they see the biggest impact — and celebrating their success, which is also one of the practices of doing customer advocacy.

Awesome, thanks for sharing that. I also wanted to ask: when you're talking about customer evidence, which I can see is very dear to your heart, that has impacted you, which is perfect — other than the customer stories, or the testimonials that you get from customers, are there any customer advocacy practices that you have been involved in and would like to share more details about with the listeners? Some insights?

Vlado Rukavina 12:22
Yes. Sorry for interrupting. So, yes, of course. In this global advocacy role, I have been mainly dealing with name drops, customer solution use cases that have been used for RFP responses, and also customer-to-customer calls, which are really important.

So I've been working on some deals. I cannot say which companies were involved, but I think one of the biggest deals was — I'm not sure even if I can say this, so I'll censor the company — but it was $2 billion.

Host 13:04
Wow.

Vlado Rukavina 13:05
Yeah. So for that deal, we had to work really, really hard to secure a reference call between a customer that had been using one of the products — I have to be really careful about this — one of the products, in a really specific and demanding way, because there were a lot of technical challenges. And that customer, you can imagine, for that amount of money for a deal, wanted to get to know every side of the product and every benefit or potential challenge that could occur.

So by providing a reference call and connecting the successful customer advocate with the prospect, you manage to assure the potential customer that the product is already used in a great way in an environment that is similar to their own. Basically, by doing that, you disprove all, or the majority, of their doubts. And that is the point with customer advocacy.

Because sellers are doing a great job, they can convince someone to buy something, but at the end of the day — even when you want to buy an appliance, a mobile phone, or whatever — you will always want to see what the experience is from the end users. So you call your friends, or whoever, and ask them, okay, how have you been using this product? Is it great? Do you have any issues with it? It's the same thing when you're selling anything, be it complicated technical industry solutions or just an ordinary product. So that is really interesting and exciting to me.

Host 15:20
That's very true. It gets me thinking about our daily life, like you said — before making a purchasing decision, you look for word of mouth, or you go and read reviews about experiences that others have gone through. But when you talk about the B2B space, then it becomes not just a simple appliance purchase, it becomes much bigger, with the impact you're describing, and customer advocacy becomes almost a weapon for sales teams to have in their pockets that they can leverage.

Vlado Rukavina 16:02
Yeah, it definitely is a potent asset that they can leverage in their battle to win over the customer. Especially in the tech world, the competitors are really, really sharp, and as you said, it's a battle. So if you can use some of your previous wins to leverage another win, you should always do that. That's the great thing about customer advocacy, because it always grows with your business. If you are successful, you will have a lot of candidates.

But you have to have a good advocacy program, and that is where skilled reference managers and advocacy specialists come in. So it's not only crucial to have a good business and satisfied customers. It's about having an experienced team and experienced program management that will make that process so much easier. Because if you're working with an inexperienced reference manager, or you don't have much experience in it yourself, you can make things worse. It is really a high-risk, high-reward business. So I would advise anyone who wants to use this asset to use it really carefully and in a professional manner.

Host 17:46
So you opened up an idea for another question for me there, when you were talking about a skilled reference manager. In your experience, from your interactions, what are the skills that a powerful reference manager should have?

Vlado Rukavina 18:07
For me, the first skill should be communication. Communication is the number one skill a reference manager should have — or customer advocacy specialist, however you want to phrase it. Without communication, I think it is not possible to do this effectively, because you are managing so many stakeholders, from sellers and customers up to — I have been in contact with C-level executives. You have to know how to talk to those people, who don't have time to even read your email all the way to the end. Sometimes they don't even open a lot of their emails, because they're so busy doing strategic planning and thinking about larger operations.

And you have to be persuasive, and you have to be open and honest enough to get the account executives or account directors on your side, to help you get another seller to accept letting you contact his customers. That, for me, is the number one skill.

Host 19:38
Okay, I really appreciate that. And you are a wonderful communicator, so you've got

Vlado Rukavina 19:44
it. Thank you.

Host 19:47
So, one more thing. Like you said, you've been involved with customer advocacy — whether it be the customer stories or the reference management role, supporting the sales organization with their deals, C2C calls, etc. What tip would you give to a newcomer to customer advocacy? Or it can even be to a seasoned person, just as a reminder — how to be successful in their role and to have impact, because that, at the end of the day, is one of the pillars of success.

Vlado Rukavina 20:34
Basically, be persistent, and be open and honest about what you want and what you need.

For example, there have been a lot of times when a seller just requests a call for his customer, but he does not provide enough information for me to make a decision about which reference or which advocate would be the most suitable one. So you really have to be open and honest about everything that you do. You need to go back to that seller or CSM and tell him that he needs to give you more information. Sometimes they don't have the information themselves — they just receive a request from their customer, who asks them, okay, bring us this customer and this one, and they do not provide more information. So you have to go back to that requester, to that seller, and ask him to consolidate with their customer and bring you all the information that you need. Because if you don't have all the information, you cannot contact other advocates — you will just be wasting their time.

So just be open and honest and persistent. Persistence is really the key.

Host 21:55
Okay. And in your response I hear, going back to the skill sets, communication, persistence, being open and honest. I guess it also comes with transparency. So, communicating that transparency. Awesome, wonderful. Is there anything else that you would want to share with everyone listening in?

Vlado Rukavina 22:17
Well, I think I already shared that I have four kittens for adoption. Regarding customer advocacy, I think it's really an interesting and growing field, and if you're thinking about joining the field or just need some tips or tricks, you can always reach out to me via LinkedIn. I post there, and you can ask for any tips, guides, or whatever you need from my side.

And yeah, always keep learning — that's another tip. Because if you get a customer that is really technical, techie, technically extensive, you need to adapt and learn new things. But then if you get, for example, a retail customer, it's not so much in tech, it's focused on other stuff. You really need to adapt. So adaptability would be one additional key virtue for customer advocacy specialists to have.

Host 23:34
Yeah, I think advocacy is a space where learning never stops, and it constantly evolves. So that's why

Vlado Rukavina 23:42
I love it. I mean, I never wanted to do repetitive or boring jobs or tasks, so for me this is really — every day is a different challenge, and every reference request or advocacy request is a different form of challenge. You have to adapt to new markets, to new customers, to new advocates, and you need to find the language of communication with different cultures.

That's also one of the precious things I've learned from all of this, because I've been covering the whole world, from Japan to the United States, and Africa up to Norway. You have to learn how to adapt to the way people communicate, because people do not do business the same way in South America as in the Middle East. Some people — some sellers, or some other folks — like a head-on, informal approach, and some people don't like it. For example, in Japan, you have to be really formal and learn how to address the people you are talking to, and you have to show respect. But in some other parts of the world, if you come to a seller and ask him in that formal way, with a whole email about how we need help from you and your customer, you will get a one-sentence reply, or you wouldn't get a reply at all. So maybe you should just ping that person via instant message and introduce yourself and tell him, hey, I need this because it's in the interest of the whole company.

And before all of that, you first need to get the human touch in. You need to ask him how he's doing, or how his day is going — just those little things that make every one of us human. So you need to master intercultural communication, and that's not an easy thing to do.

Host 26:15
Yeah, and the countries and regions that you talked about are very diverse in themselves. Like you said, Japan versus maybe an EMEA customer would act very differently in certain situations. So having that cultural knowledge, knowing the nuances, I'm sure is only beneficial — not just to any role, but to customer advocacy especially.

Vlado Rukavina 26:45
Yeah, I fully agree with you. If you're working only in one country and one market, then maybe it's not so important to be that culturally versatile — maybe that's a good word, I don't know. But if you're working for a company that is worldwide, you certainly need to be adaptable and open about the different ways of communicating that are accepted around the globe.

Host 27:19
And Vlado, before I let you go, I do have one final question for you. If you were to make a T-shirt with an advocate marketing message on it, what would it be?

Vlado Rukavina 27:32
Oh, you got me on the spot here, so let me think a bit. Probably something that was my LinkedIn headline, but I've changed it recently. It would go something like this — something along the line of "your customers are your biggest advocates." I think my title said that, or my bio info, how do you call it, on LinkedIn — it said that I was working on promoting the voices of your most precious advocates, your successful customers. So something along the lines of that one. Or maybe something about cooperation. But probably: let your successful customers be your most valuable advocates.

Host 28:32
I like that one. We can actually turn that into a T-shirt.

Vlado Rukavina 28:37
I love the name Advocast. I think that I came up with it, I'm not sure.

Host 28:41
Yes, I think you're the creator of this title, so yeah, that goes in definitely too.

Vlado Rukavina 28:48
Can I put that on my

Host 28:51
resume? I think you can earn that as one of your skills and achievements as well.

Vlado Rukavina 28:59
Yeah, great. Yeah, I love it. And that's the copywriting and world literature bachelor part of me, of my person — I like to make slogans. So if you're really going to make a shirt, I would like to subscribe myself to one.

Host 29:24
Okay, got it. If we ever do make our own merch, we have you down.

Vlado Rukavina 29:31
You can call me. I can even think about the slogan.

Host 29:36
Nice. So, once again, thank you, Vlado. Thank you so much for your time, and hope to see you in the next episode.

Vlado Rukavina 29:46
Thank you, Melis. Thank you, Mauro. Thank you to all the people listening to The Advocast. And yeah, go make your successful customers your greatest advocates. Bye bye.

Host 30:00
This episode was brought to you by Wings4U, helping global B2B tech brands unleash the power of their customers' voice. Wings4U customer stories and advocacy programs help you deepen customer relationships, increase retention, and close more deals faster.