Episode 6: The metrics that matter in customer advocacy

Host  0:00  
Welcome to the Advocast, where we discuss all things customer advocacy, discover the latest trends, best practices, and tangible advice as we talk to some of the brightest and sharpest professionals in the industry.

Host  0:14  
Hi, Kim.

Kim Plank  0:16  
Hi, Maria. Good to see you. Thanks for having me.

Host  0:20  
Good to see you, and thanks for coming. Thanks for accepting the invitation to The Advocast podcast. We are super happy to have you here. We have known each other for a while, and we both are coming from the customer marketing world. So, my first question would be, because we met actually in Microsoft, but I wanted to also ask you, maybe there was a previous experience in your life. How did you come to the custom marketing universe, and how did your journey start?

Kim Plank  0:49  
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, we do know each other going back some time now, and while my foray at Microsoft was my first jump into customer advocacy and customer reference, customer marketing. In that vein, I think I've always had that mindset of a customer marketer, even from times of being either in sales or a sales manager. Did a lot of business development for startups. Typically, you know what I care about is hearing what the customer says and what their experience is like. That's something that's always just been really key to me. And the next piece of it I would say is just being a master relationship builder is something that is really been the key to my success, whether it was in sales or as we moved into the customer marketing, but and then always having the mindset of elevating that customer's voice and their experience, because the experience, even when you're talking to the most happy and satisfied customer, is not always perfect, because technology adoption and all of that, it's always a journey, and so being able to know that you have, or you're giving them a listening ear that's really hearing their pain points and hearing what they've been through in their journey, and then at the end celebrating and cheering on that success that they've seen.

Host  2:30  
Oh my gosh, I love how you've really summarized the customer marketing role. I think you really represent like the perfect person who you know excels in customer marketing. I really loved how you told everything, but you shared right, like listening to the customer, being there, being a master relationship builder, celebrating their success, elevating them. I think it's amazing. And throughout the years in this field, there were. there are. did you see any trends which are now really upcoming trends? Do you see changes within the field? Is it something which is not so in course anymore, or what has changed, and what state, and what is new? 

Kim Plank  3:19  
Yeah, and then I would say, you know, the core of what we do is the same. It's something that goes back, you know, before, way before even I was in customer marketing, but that, you know, when, when there's a great product or someone is happy with the product, they love to tell people about it, right? That also goes to backwards, if they're unhappy with the product, they're also telling people about it, so in my mind, you know, we've always been a reference, if you will, whether it's a good reference or a bad reference, that's yet to be seen, the trends that I have seen change are obviously the methods that we are delivering that that customer voice and the power of that voice is even more powerful if you think about our digital age and just how quickly you can get that message out, whether if you're unhappy or if you're very happy, and then the variety of channels and opportunities, so whereas I would say, especially in the technology space, where, when I got into it, of course, with Microsoft, and a big, big product like that, and nobody could just go buy a product without actually speaking to somebody who's using it, doing all of their due diligence, and all of those cycles have really sped up, I would say, and what's really changed is that the customer is doing so much of the. Buying cycle or the by starting their buying journey before they even never talk to a publisher of any kind of company, so they're looking at review sites, they're seeing what their social media puts out, they're seeing what kind of companies they sponsor, and if that resonates with what they like to do, if they have green initiatives, or this company likes that too, so those types of things is where I've really seen what's changed, and so it's it's something that in a good, good world it's actually been good because it's made the customer voice just that much more important, I would say, so the four, I would say, it was maybe a little more private, especially if you're facilitating something like a reference, you know, we were doing those kinds of things behind the scenes, but now we're much more in the front, so front of stage, if you will.

Host  5:59  
Why, what do you think the success KPIs for the Voice of the Customer program? How can we measure them?

Kim Plank  6:09  
Yeah, definitely, the program that you build, it's obviously going to be dependent upon the maturity of your, your product and your program, you always want to be maturing and growing, but those those KPIs at first they might be about adding those net new logos to your program, adding people who are willing to be a reference, getting them maybe to speak in, in a, to like on a webinar that your product team is running, those types of things really are kind of the beginning stages, I would say, and then as you mature, there's definitely that model you'll want to keep, keep growing and keep building out because you need to think beyond just the just those kind of reference pieces, but maybe it's as deep as getting your customers involved in the PR that you do, you know, helping lead the community blog, those types of things, where they're really seen as what I term was like the industry leaders and helping elevate those customers as an industry leader, so those KPIs are going to vary depending on the program, but I would also just make sure, of course, you're connecting to your leadership and where, where the things that are key to your leaders and your stakeholders are always going to be important, and then also think about your go-to market, so if you go to market with a partner channel, well, then you'll need to also incorporate some KPIs that really involve that that stakeholder group as well and make them feel a part of it and just know how to work that also relationship of that partner and really take into their to account that these are their these are your joint customers and making sure they're there they feel that they're protected and they're not being overused and abused that type of thing, then you also may, may have customer success managers within your org, that type of a scenario also, and the things that are going to be important to them might be different than what your CMO, you know, is looking at. So, making sure I know it's hard, because I just talked about a lot of things, and, and that's one of the challenges of being a customer marketer, is that it is really one of those things that it's kind of an and scenario, you know, some people I think really like to just focus and say, oh well, if we just did, and I don't use the word case study, but customer success stories, or customer stories, we just had 10 more of those a year, that's all you know we need to focus on that, and then someone else might say no, we just need five more videos, or you know, you're always going to be tasked with something that is important to one group, but the bottom line is it all matters in the end, because you're trying to build the business, and your audience that's out there is a whole variety of, you know, people, like I said, whether it's a partner, whether it's a third party partner, and then also those customers and those prospects, and what they're seeing, and the ways that they're engaging with your products vary, so that's why it is kind of this, and, and, and, and scenario, you know, yeah, you can't really just say let's just do this, but we understand it does, does take energy to put into. All those different areas, but making sure that you are kind of measuring as you go along and evaluating, and then I would say the biggest thing with a KPI, whatever the KPI that you've landed on, is just making sure you're showing that is that there's growth, and sometimes that growth is just pure numbers growth, and then other times it actually is growth, where it's maybe, maybe it's depth, maybe it's you have, you know, you had so many people in your program as part of your reference program, but really you need to be connecting to the senior leaders at that, at those businesses, so showing things that are more role-based is another way that a KPI can be measured, that's not necessarily all about numbers, but showing that you're adding not just numbers, but you're also adding depth and breadth, I guess...

Host  10:56  
I like the way we're thinking and really thinking about how to connect it with the leadership, I think this is what we are now not struggling, but aiming for for a while. How to connect the customer marketing role to a more strategic and senior leadership role, so we can align with their goals and KPIs as well, and support them.

Kim Plank  11:17  
Yeah, and I think why that's important is, you know, you don't want to just silo, be your own, and it's easy to do, just be your own little part of the business, or own little world, and you've got customers, but you need to also make sure that you're breaking out, and you're not operating in silo, you are operating with all of those those areas in mind, and so, and it's hard, because there's a lot to do, so making sure that you break out and connect with your readers, and then surface the successes back to them at a regular cadence that helps them in what they are going to do in the business, right?

Host  12:00  
I like that, because a lot of time I feel we are busy, busy, busy, but like celebrating the success and reporting back, it's as much as important as just doing the work, in my opinion, because that gives much better visibility, and to me, customer marketing is on most of the customer progress is one of the most important parts of the company, because this is how we can generate more business and revenue, so showing the successes and reporting back, it's important.

Kim Plank  12:28  
Well, yeah, because I've interviewed, you know, hundreds and hundreds of customers over the years, and when I asked them, what are the, what's the main reason that you even get involved, why? Why do you spend your time? You know, when I ask you to help us out with the press release or talk to someone who's evaluating our solution, they always tell me, like, the num, you know, usually the number one and number two things are they want to just give their experience and speak to their experience, and then a number two thing is they actually do want to connect more with your leaders, your leadership team, and your product teams, because that's what's important to them. This product is becoming integral to their business, and so they need to feel that they have a little bit of a voice in that, and so opportunities to make sure that the leadership knows about these successes and these wins and is elevating them is definitely key, and then anytime you can bring your, if yours, if there's any gatherings that are in person, especially is great, whether it's a user group or an annual event, but some time to have that leadership team there to really show their appreciation to those customers who are giving their time and helping grow your business.

Host  13:58  
And I wonder, do you consider revenue influence pipeline as one of the most important KPIs?

Kim Plank  14:08  
So it's hard because I'm such a relationship person, and so of course the relationship piece is something you can't measure that I feel like is important, but at the end of the day, it is still about the bottom line, or you know, or else you wouldn't have a job, or you know, like it's, it's important that the bottom line is shown, and so you know, there's not a lot of really tangible ways that you can reflect what that influence is from from something like a customer success story or video that you put out, most of you know, we know that that customer voice, it's really invaluable, if you will. Yes, you know, but when you can get the any of that. And you know, revenue really it's influenced or kind of touched, and making sure that you're tracking any of that, whether your customer did help with a webinar, and the, you know, the prospects that were on that webinar, however many deals close, that type of thing, so there's definitely a way to make sure that you're keeping that in mind, so it's a kind of a yes and no.

Host  15:27  
I wish we could have some relationship metrics, right, like this is what you said at the beginning, is such a relationship person, and the relationship with the customers is the most important thing, and it really depends on everything, whether they're going to be a reference or not, a good one or a bad one thing. It all kind of ties down to relationship with the company, with the product, with the service, how they feel that they are being supported, and so forth. So it's really about...

Kim Plank  15:58  
Yeah, you can measure it in that it really is true. I mean, the, you know, industry leaders and those, you know, the customers that I've had as a part of my programs are the ones that are most likely to renew their product. They are, you know, they're that is a relationship, it's they weren't receiving value from it still, and some of that is a part of that relationship that they've built, and they've come to rely on you as, as that business partner, they see it as a partnership, so you know that making sure that those those people are renewing and their voice is heard. I think there is some way to kind of measure that, that, that number as well, because I know that that's what that is, that that success of keeping those customers, which there has been a lot more emphasis on. I would say more recently, in the past, I think companies are all about finding the new, finding the new, finding the new, and there has been a shift that you know what we need to make sure we're taking care of the customers that we do have, and we're providing the best experience for them, so that they do stay with us long term, because we're, we operate in a SaaS model, that's just how it is, and so that it's important. Yeah, you need to find some new business, and that you know, totally drop off, but you to grow the business, you need to keep the ones that you have, but then also you know go after some new markets.

Host  17:39  
And CustomerX is coming close. It's going to happen in October in Boston. I'm super excited that we're going to meet each other and that you're going to be there this year. Theme is Accelerate. What are your expectations on this year's event or theme?

Kim Plank  18:00  
Yeah, well, CustomerXCon, if you haven't signed up yet, make sure you do sign up, because you definitely don't want to miss it. It's not too late. I can email me, and I can get you a code, gives you a little discount. So, let's, let's do that. But I would say the expectations are, you know, this is something that has been really important to me. I've been in from like the ground up, like in the early days of the event, where we were planning the first in person and then went to virtual and kind of grew that, and so what I've seen is just that the community is growing, and it's also a very unique community to be in, in that it's so supportive, and there's just a really great sense of everyone wanting to share their tips, and you know, their, their advice, and really support one another, and know that we're kind of all in this together, and we're all figuring out this broad category, which is customer marketing, and so that's something that's cool, and then the there's some paths and some channels that are different that we haven't had before, one of which is a CSM track, and so I've been a little more vocal prior, that you know the CSM role is in a within a business is not necessarily a role that I've engaged with as a customer marketer. I used to say product and customer marketing, and didn't didn't meet, but I see those meeting now, but then sometimes customer success and customer marketing don't meet, and so one thing that's new is the kind of breaking down those barriers and breaking down those walls between that, because that's an area where, like you said, the focus, you, as you're talking to these businesses on retention and. And the key to that is going to be these two orgs coming together and and figuring out the path and the plan to make that happen and so this will be exciting part of the the event in Boston

Host  20:16  
And Kim, you're going to be also speaking at the event. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've been, what you're going to be speaking about, and should come and see you.

Kim Plank  20:28  
Sure, definitely. Well, if you liked what we were talking about just now, you will like what we're talking about in Boston, because I've teamed up with Lauren Tonsy, and we've got Dylan character, and definitely we're having, we want to do what the answer the questions that you guys have, so if you have questions about metrics that matter, or how to, you know, how ROI can really help as a business, we'll, we'll have that panel discussion around that at the beginning, and then we break out into kind of the real nitty gritty of like quantifying some of that data, and kind of, as I just said, the customer marketing can be a big, a big category, and so there will be, you know, breakouts if you're strictly more on like the reference management side of the house, there's, you know, specific KPIs and ROI and metrics that you want to measure that might be different than if you're more connected on like the digital marketing side of the house, so making sure that we have the breakout, so the area of the business that you know you either are in or an area that you need to grow in, then you can make sure that you're finding the questions that work for you and being sure that you can learn some different, maybe some new ways that to quantify, quantify that data, and when I say the data, it is quantitative data as well as qualitative data, so making sure you have a way to think beyond just the numbers, and some, some, maybe some tips and ideas around that, but we love to involve the audience, so any, any questions that you might have would be, would be great.

Host  22:16  
Amazing, I'll make sure I'll be there, because honestly, I feel like the measurements and the KPIs is one of the most important parts of any successful program. What, what is not measured is not there. So to me, like reporting back to the leadership, or just to us, like knowing that we are progressing and growing in the right ways, it's always amazing. So I like that you are also, we are also able to go into break breakup sessions and really find what we need, depending on our area of expertise, and Kim, you also mentioned, so there was the breadth, but like in terms of like, do we need to be like super experienced or beginning with the program, who is your session really for?

Kim Plank  23:02  
Yeah, I mean, I think we had in mind, I think at first that the breakouts would be more like, I hate to say, like level one and level two, but it's, it's a little bit more about, you know, the the area of the business that you're in. So I would say each breakout is going to be for everyone, you'll get a little something from it, so we will be able to to cover if you're just getting started some of those things, but then also, like, hey, now what? I already run, I'm already running metrics, you know what else? What else can I do, or what's something else that I can think outside the box, so I think being able to break out by the type, type of metrics that you're looking at, and then to, you know, get different ideas from the, the others in the room, which, you know, there's some incredible experts who've been doing this and are really smart at it, and smarter at me, smarter than me at capturing that data and putting it into something that's visually appealing for the leadership and for the audience there, so cool.

Host  24:12  
Yeah, and I love about this community, it's really like together I feel we are smarter because we really help each other out for community connection, which is important, and this is what I'm looking for at the CustomerX, mostly just to remind and see people who we kind of interact online to see them in person. It's always a big treat for me.

Kim Plank  24:35  
Yeah, people talk about having their, you know, their tribe, if you will, but it's, you know, it definitely is where colleagues that I really feel are in it together, and we're in it for the long haul. I mean, like I said, my background varies. I, you know, could be doing partner marketing, I could be doing more integrated digital campaigns. Means, and those types of things, but I really have a, like, a affinity towards the advocate marketing and the true, like, reference management, reference advocacy program, and that voice of the customer, because I think that's honestly what I born to be a storyteller, I think. So, I love being able to hear what other people are doing, and it is just like you're just, you're just hearing stories all around you, and, and not always, the stories are all successful. So, that's one thing I'd said we will also kind of incorporate into what we're talking about, there is, hey, you know, sometimes the metrics don't show what you want, so how can you maybe reframe that, or rethink what you're measuring, or is there a way to use that to help the leadership maybe understand, and like, on where to focus, or or to strategize, because it's, you know, we're all kind of figuring this out together, so it doesn't always come out perfectly, but luckily we have a great community that's that supports us and is willing to help. If you have a question, they'll jump in, so it's great,

Host  26:17  
Amazing. Yeah, definitely join us in Boston, 17 and 18 of October, CustomerX and Kim, I have one last question. If you had a chance to write a sentence on a mug or a T-shirt regarding customer marketing or customer advocacy, what, what would it be?

Kim Plank  26:42  
Well, I actually just heard this one like a month or two ago, but it's, it's like sunk into me that I can't let it go, and you actually can get this on a mug or I think, as on a T-shirt from, I think it's Advocacy outfitters.com but it's an ROI T-shirt, and it's Relationship Obtained Investment. So, I just can't help that I go back to that relationship, and the T-shirt really says it all for me. So, and you, you too can wear this shirt. I plan to wear it, I think, at CustomerXCon, because it's definitely...

Host  27:28  
Perfect. Thank you so much, Kim. Thank you so much for spending the time with us. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge.

Kim Plank  27:36  
Thank you for having me. Honored to be invited, and really happy to join you today virtually, and we'll be in the room together in October.

Host  27:45  
My God, I'm so excited. Thank you so much. Have a fantastic day. Bye, Kim.

Kim Plank  27:50  
Thank you.

Host  27:52  
This episode was brought to you by Wings for You, helping global B2B tech brands unleash the power of their customers' voice. Wings for you customer stories and advocacy programs help you deepen customer relationships, increase retention, and close more deals faster.