Episode 4: Designing customer advocacy programs that align with business goals

Host 0:01
Welcome to The Advocast, where we discuss all things customer advocacy. Discover the latest trends, best practices, and tangible advice as we talk to some of the brightest and sharpest professionals in the industry. Learn how to turn your customers into advocates to drive sales leads and make a positive impact on revenue.

Host 0:28
Hi everyone. Today I'm thrilled to have Steven Woodward on the show. He's the Director of Client Experience at Ciox Health. Hi Steven, how are you doing?

Steven Woodward 0:38
I'm very well. How are you today?

Host 0:41
I'm doing well, thank you very much. We really appreciate you taking the time to be with us on the show. We have an audience willing to know a little bit more about you, and today we have an excellent show with several topics: segmentation of customers, strategies for engagement with different advocates, and tips for people who are starting their own programs right now. And when I talk about programs, it's not only pure advocacy, but any customer marketing program. We are very excited to have you, Steven.

Steven Woodward 1:20
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Host 1:20
All right, so let's go directly to the first question. And the first question is exactly about you. I'd like to know how you got into this customer marketing and advocacy universe — a little bit about your career highlights and where you come from.

Steven Woodward 1:20
Sure. So I have been in client- or customer-facing roles since my very first job when I was 15 years old, so this seems like a natural outgrowth of all of that experience of working with customers in various ways.

A number of years ago I started with a company called Optum — it wasn't called Optum in those days, but anyway — working with healthcare clients. Part of my role was managing the relationships that we had with strategic alliances, and predominantly they were healthcare-related associations. A lot of the clients that we served were members of these associations, and the relationships we had with these alliances would result in special perks for our clients who were members.

At that time, our company was always marketing the fact that we had experts programming our software and writing the books and other resources we had. So I started advocating for leveraging our internal folks to be out in front of the marketplace, but that we should get some of our clients to present with them. So I almost fell into it accidentally — I didn't even know what I was doing.

And then a few years later, Optum started a reference and advocacy program. At that point I had actually left the company, and I had been laid off from another job, and I saw this position they were trying to fill at Optum for reference and advocacy. I'd never heard of that, but I read the job description, and I thought, oh my gosh, this is my dream job. This is exactly the kind of thing that I would like to do. So I was part of a team that actually set up our very first reference and advocacy program there, and it was wildly successful. It was great fun to come up with the ideas, stand up the program, and start working with clients in that way.

Host 3:59
Nice. And when was that?

Steven Woodward 4:01
That was in 2013, and it was the first time that I actually reported up through marketing. I'd always worked with marketers tangentially in various roles, but we actually reported to the Vice President of Provider Marketing at that point, and we were part of the marketing team.

Host 4:19
Interesting, interesting. Okay. And what does a normal day look like at Ciox Health for you?

Steven Woodward 4:27
So right now at Ciox — my original directive, I guess, when I was hired, and I've only been there for a couple of months — they needed someone to take over for another individual who left the company, who was managing their NPS and KLAS surveys. And I should explain KLAS: it's K-L-A-S, and it is healthcare-specific. It is an organization that surveys folks that are using health technology and services provided by entities like Ciox, Optum, and Olive, the other healthcare company I worked for.

So I am managing the processes around, and the analysis of the data we get back from, these surveys for NPS and KLAS. And then we also have an existing CAB, and it's actually quite good, but everybody agrees it needs a few tweaks and improvements. So those were sort of my primary things.

But in the interview process, as the conversations grew with person after person, I kept questioning: when we're talking about NPS, what are you doing with your promoters? It's all well and good to try to pull your detractors and your passives into that territory, but what are you doing with those folks that are promoters? Because if you're not leveraging them for mutual benefit, you're missing the boat. So they really hadn't — but they all get it, I mean, this is the wonderful thing. So when they brought me in, they said, we want you to take care of these other things, but we also want you to stand up a reference and advocacy program. So I am actually in the day-to-day business of managing my other things, but I am working very hard right now to put together a reference and advocacy program that we want to roll out in January.

Host 6:24
So, Steven, what I hear is that you were promoted already during your interview stage.

Steven Woodward 6:32
Yeah, well, not so much promoted, but given more responsibility, I guess. But that's okay, because it's what I love to do.

Host 6:39
Yes. And what you just said resonates a lot with me, because that's one of the things I always see in organizations: what is your strategy for your promoters? What is your strategy for happy customers? Because for the customers that are unhappy, we all know the basic things, right? Give them more attention, solve the problems, fix issues, performance, whatever is bothering the customer. Sometimes it's just a perception. But what you're doing with your promoters is, I think, even more important, because it's an asset that every company has. And what I see is that you were able to already get people on board with your program — maybe a future customer advocacy council — who already bought into the idea of doing something with that, right?

Steven Woodward 7:26
Yeah, it's great, because everybody's supportive, so the leadership is supportive of it. Honestly, I think maybe that's one of the reasons why I may have gotten the job over anybody else they were interviewing: because I made them think about this. It's all part of the client experience, so why would you not create this other client program? And now we're actually looking at some additional client programs too. So it's pretty cool, it really is.

Host 7:56
Okay, so the current status that I'm hearing is that you are starting fresh at a company, you have a lot of things on your plate that promise you can do right things with the positive voice of the customer, you can do more with that, you have things to revamp, maybe things to integrate as well. So you just said the new customer programs are probably all going to be integrated. So let's talk about this for our audience. Steven, what are the important things, in your opinion, when designing client programs such as advocacy programs, that they should take into consideration?

Steven Woodward 8:35
Well, that's a great question, and it's actually a conversation that I'm having with my colleagues, because one of the programs that they want to stand up is being led by somebody else. She's our SVP of Provider Marketing, and she's new, and she totally gets it.

What I said to her was, we really need to make sure that we are aligned, that our programs are branded to give an identity to them, and that they are cohesive and consistent, so that we're delivering the same experience. So if clients are participating in one program and decide they would like to participate in another program, or their tour of duty with one program ends and they come to another program, it's a smooth transition. They don't really see a lot of difference, because everything is consistent.

So that's what I would say: if you're designing multiple programs at the same time, or introducing new programs, give them a similar identity, look, and feel — a consistent experience for your clients, so that they know what it's like to work with you across the board.

Host 9:48
From the branding perspective, it will help a lot in this integration, I guess. And when we are talking about branding, it's not only a logo, right? It's not a name, it's all the processes, how they're consuming, how they're engaging and interacting with the company. All that can have patterns that will be part of the brand, how they perceive and consume it.

Steven Woodward 10:11
Right. And I think most people with a reference and advocacy program have given it a name, but I want to give names to all of our programs. Any program we come up with, I want to give a name to it and try to keep it all within some sort of thematic naming convention.

Host 10:32
Love it. And just one of the questions that's also outside of our script that I'm thinking about: what about programs that are customer marketing programs owned by third parties, other people in the organization? What do you think about integrating those? Let's say you join the organization — this might be your case at Ciox Health — and you find that they have a CAB, but maybe you are not the owner of that CAB, but you're going to somehow take that value proposition and integrate it into your brand, this bigger thing, which is the customer advocacy program. So what are other areas or programs that you see as interesting to integrate into a program you already have?

Steven Woodward 11:27
Yeah. I happen to be the owner of the CAB program, but if I were not, it's certainly part of the overall client experience, which I'm responsible for. But regardless of your title, I think if you're brought into an organization and there are some existing customer programs, you should work very hard with the leaders of those programs to do exactly what I said: to start giving everything a consistent look and feel, a consistent experience. And I think your colleagues ought to be on board with that and understand the value of doing that.

If there's an existing CAB and you are not the leader of that CAB — and I've had that experience at other organizations — the CAB is a great place to go to find references or advocates. So you really should, even if the CAB doesn't want you sitting in on the meetings or taking control of it. I think they certainly would understand why it would be smart to target some of those people to be a reference or an advocate, or both.

And I should explain: when I talk about references, I'm talking about a sales-focused task, so there's revenue on the line, and you want to line up a conversation between a prospect and an existing customer that's in your program. When I talk about advocacy, I'm talking about all the marketing and branding things that you want to leverage clients for — webinars, podcasts, speakerships, you name it. Maybe people in your program don't do both, maybe they do; it depends on how you structure it. I like to set it up so that the advocacy opportunities are part of the benefits of taking time to do those references.

But anyway, back to the whole point. If you go to your CAB and say, there are probably folks in this CAB that would make good references and great advocates, or members of their organization would — so how can we work together? How can we give a consistent experience across the board? Because if we ask them to be part of this group as well, I want to make sure we're lined up.

Host 13:48
And you don't need to own that, right? It's not that you are claiming ownership of any program, you're just integrating the experience as you see it. I love that idea, because that's one of the things that we talk about a lot with our clients and friends in the market. I always see our role as advocacy managers, or any related role, as a kind of V-team lead, shopping around the organization, leading different departments, and making sure that all these can be integrated into two structures of gives and gets. As you said, references and advocacy — maybe you can call it advocacy activities and recognition activities. But this relationship of gives and gets is the value proposition that you give to a customer to get them to be engaged in your program. I think that's one of the basics, and it requires a lot, of course, from a role like ours.

You cannot be in that role and say, "Oh, people don't give me attention," or "I don't have the support of the C-level of my company." No. In our role, in order to be successful — I'm not sure if you agree with this — you need to manage bottom-up, have a lot of initiatives, and be in that role of a V-team lead, right?

Steven Woodward 15:12
Absolutely. You need to advocate for your programs and for your clients. And you're always managing up and down the food chain, and across — across sales, marketing, product. So you have to be someone who is good at relationship building, because you're building those relationships not just with your clients, but with your entire internal team, who you serve. So they are your internal customers.

Host 15:43
And it was amazing to hear that you started doing that in your interview process already. So, good job.

All right, so now a little bit about models and best practices. We know that this is a fairly new market — well, not very new, but we are still structuring all these visions and possibilities, best practices of customer advocacy and customer marketing. It's a fairly new wave being adopted and structured by companies, and we know that there is no one size fits all for all companies. I would like to hear from your experience, having worked for different organizations: what are the different models of programs that you could find out there? And I'm not sure if you can give us some examples or share a little bit about that.

Steven Woodward 16:51
Sure. So most of my experience has been in the healthcare world, with Optum, with Olive, and now with Ciox Health. And I did a brief stint with a company called Micro Focus, which is for IT professionals, so a very different client base with very different interests.

The complexity of that program, or the lack thereof — it's a global company, international clientele, and I was responsible for all of the advocacy and reference activities in one business unit, so we were very siloed in that regard. The nice thing was I got to do what I wanted to do for my own business unit. It wasn't something that had to be done across the company. I think they should have, and they haven't done it yet, but that's another conversation.

There were some foundational things that I wanted to introduce, and there were things that I didn't think we should be doing, and then I found out I was wrong, because I just hadn't worked in that kind of market before. For example, everybody talks about this — a lot of my colleagues in this line of work are with technology companies, and they all talk about their communities and their online communities. Well, that would just never happen in my world, working with healthcare people. No. But it was huge at Micro Focus, and it was very popular. So I kind of had my comeuppance, and I learned that, no, this is important.

So what can we do? We had a homegrown online community, so we started looking at what we could do to beef this up a little bit and add a new aspect to it that would attract our C-level — the CIOs and the chief data officers and those folks — to come in. A curated experience coming online that would be a little bit different than the other IT people coming online, where they were doing gamification and those sorts of things. So we were working on making an attractive online experience for a different level within the organization.

But then we did have a problem with one-on-one references and reference calls, and that's where I felt like some of the foundational things that I'd learned at Optum applied. You can't just call people all the time and say, "Hey, would you take a call?" You have to have something programmatic and structured, and you have to be offering the benefits. And I say it a thousand times a day: leverage clients in ways that are mutually beneficial. So offer them — if you would be willing to take a half hour out of your day periodically, at your convenience, according to your schedule, to have conversations with prospective clients, we will do these things for you.

And you have to think of the benefits that are going to be meaningful to that client base. When you're with an international organization, where you've got multiple languages, multiple cultures, multiple businesses — Micro Focus was across every industry imaginable — it's a challenge. I'm not going to lie, it's a challenge. But I think there are certain things that you can do, like those advocacy things. Don't position doing a case study as a chore; that should be something that they want to do. And there are certain industries where they're reluctant to be named. If you're doing something with IT security, and they're a bank or a finance company, they're probably not going to want to put their name on who they're using. We get that.

Steven Woodward 20:55
The beautiful thing is the prospective customers in the same industry get it too, so they don't necessarily expect to see a named case study. But would you be willing to get on a phone call? And if you do — would you be interested in public speaking engagements? Would you be interested in doing a webinar or a podcast, like we're doing now? So you need to think of other things that would be an attractive benefit for them, where you can scratch their back a little bit and show your appreciation that they took time that their company was paying for to have a conversation with your prospect and help you make money.

Host 21:33
Yeah, I completely agree with everything you just said. I just want to see if I understood correctly. What I'm hearing is that the community model is not for everyone. Maybe it's mandatory for your company — I would say, in our experience as well, we've seen some companies that are heavily based on SMB customers or consumers. Maybe for those cases you cannot escape communities; that's maybe the only way that will be worth conducting the activities.

But if you are in the higher-value segments, where your product is delivering value to the C-suite — CFOs, CIOs, CHROs, CTOs — then you cannot shape their behavior by earning points, by scoring systems. It needs at least to be curated. That's what you said that I liked a lot. But usually that's not enough, right? As you're saying, you need a clear structure of gives and gets, like we were talking about in the previous question — a way that they will see value that is segmented for that segment of customers. That kind of title, like VPs and CXOs, is different from developers or IT managers, who will maybe be happy and have their behavior shaped in different ways, with a different structure of activities. Is that right?

Steven Woodward 23:20
Exactly. And people at various levels of the organization — it's great to have relationships with all those levels, and sometimes it's difficult, especially to get to the highest levels. But you may have a reference where a CFO at one organization wants to talk to another CFO. You may have a reference where our tech people want to talk to your tech people. Or our end users, the operations people, want to talk about how this technology works. So they could be very, very different conversations, and you have to cater to both audiences, so to speak.

From the prospect's perspective, you have to be able to line up similar resources. And from your client participant's perspective, you have to have benefits that appeal to them where they live — kind of meeting them where they live, and providing the benefits that most appeal to them.

One of the things we were challenged with at Micro Focus was getting people to do Gartner surveys, and the gamification incentives and things like that weren't really working for that. So we were trying to think of other ways to get people to do those surveys for us. But the online community that we had — they were very engaged, and they were pretty active. It was pretty successful. It just needed some improvements.

Host 24:49
Got it, got it. So I think what we can learn from this is that you cannot just think that once you are successful in one company, it means you're going to be successful in a different company or a different program.

One of the things that resonates a lot with me from what you just said makes me think: what are the kinds of roles that you want in your program? Is it desirable to have CXOs, CHROs, or IT pros? What I'm thinking is that it all depends on the value prop that your product is delivering. If you are delivering a product that's touching, as you say, someone on the finance side, and also someone on the operations side or the HR side, maybe all three are potential good advocates for you. But if you're not touching the C-level at all — maybe you designed a product that will change the life of the C-level, but if they are not perceiving that, they are not going to be advocates. You don't have a value proposition for them, so why bother having C-level in your advocate database if you're not delivering value to them?

Steven Woodward 26:02
And the thing is, if you want to talk to people at the C-level about product enhancements, that's not going to happen. But if your C-suite wants to have interactions with the C-levels of your clients about higher-level strategic thought leadership things, that's a completely different kind of program, a completely new ball of wax. So again, you have to make sure you're engaging with people at various levels with the same people at that level within your own organization.

Host 26:37
I just love it, totally. And the same way when you are connecting a prospect to them, right? Let's make sure that we connect VPs with VPs, prospects with advocates, and not unbalance it.

And of course, big organizations that are massive in SMB, in mid-market, in higher value — companies like, I don't know, just to name one, Microsoft. They have so many products in so many different segments, for all industries, from IT pros to C-level. They will have many different programs inside, and hopefully, as you're saying, through a very accurate branding strategy, you are making that somehow unified — the experience is branded.

Steven Woodward 27:27
Yeah. I don't know what Microsoft does, but I would imagine they're doing what you're saying, and I would imagine they do have things very consistently branded.

Host 27:27
All right. And what about challenges, just as a last question on

Host 27:50
this topic? I would like to finish this conversation talking about 2023 planning. That's something that our audience is talking a lot about right now. It's the right time to talk about that — maybe it's too late already, but it's still a topic, and until the end of December, I guess we still have time.

And just to finish this section about models and challenges: there's one challenge that most programs have, which is the ability to use all the great advocates they have. You start recruiting customers, and maybe you have a very automated kind of program where you did a lot of automation to make sure that they are consuming and activating all the features, they are spending a lot of money with your company, they are realizing the value — and then you don't have enough initiatives to offer them to engage on.

That's a big problem, because coming back to something that you said: what's an advocate if it's not a customer who's happy and actively giving testimonials about your products, with their voice being amplified and used? It doesn't mean anything that you recruited a customer and they're in your database now. If you're not using that customer for six months or a year, you don't even know if they are still happy with you. Your advocates are advocates when they are actively engaging with your prospects, with your brand, and telling people about the love they have for you.

So not being able to use all those great potential advocates you have is a big challenge that most programs face. I'm not asking for a full solution for that — I'd just like to see if you have any tips for the folks in the industry facing the same challenge.

Steven Woodward 29:52
You raised a number of things in that question that present challenges for people trying to manage these kinds of programs. Like happy versus unhappy customers: you bring them into the program and they're happy, and then something happens. And again, it really depends on the organization you're with and how you manage through that.

In most of my roles in the healthcare space, I've had one-on-one relationships with the clients, and I was joined at the hip with their client success person or the sales leader that was assigned to that account, whatever the organizational structure is. So we were part of a team. If I didn't know directly, then the client manager or client success person would contact me and say, hey, we need to put them on hold for a little while, we're working through an issue with them. So we'd put them in our tracking database for references and advocates as "hold," and then we'd follow up 30 days later, two months later, whatever timeframe they gave us. Is it okay to contact them again and ask them to do stuff again?

But then there's the challenge of structuring your program. Let's say you've got an existing program, you've got references, and now you've got a new solution, and you really don't know — it's the big push for 2023 for the sales team, but you don't know how wildly successful or how big of a failure it's going to be. So you don't know how many references you might need for that. But you know you need to try to line up a few people that maybe have been beta sites, and so far so good. So you work it out: yeah, there'll be references. But do we need to add more as people come online and are doing well with it? So you've got to ballpark it.

I would encourage everybody to have conversations with your sales team at the end of the year. Whether you're looking at bringing in new products for the year, or you've just got the same products you've got, you should have conversations with your sales folks, especially the leadership. You should have an idea of how many references you've been doing on each product, and that should give you a sense of how many you think you're probably going to need for any given solution.

I remember a case where our sales team came to us and said they needed — I forget how many references, but some wild number — and we were like, no way, we don't have any solutions that need that many references. So we pushed back, and we brought in a few, and we were right. But we would always, when we recruited folks into the program, let them know it may be six months before I even ask you to take a call. We may not need you at all.

I would recommend a couple of things, and there's no clear-cut answer to any of this — you're going to have to figure it out. But a couple of things: try to pinpoint a solid number, so you're not over-recruiting. If you under-recruit, that's better than over-recruiting, because you can always recruit more if you need to. It's like putting too much salt in something: you can't take it back out.

And then try to think of an incentive, like, just for joining our program, you will get this. At Optum, at Olive, and at Micro Focus, we were making that something like complimentary registrations to our annual customer conference. So you'll get two complimentary registrations to that.

Steven Woodward 33:40
Now, do they have a travel budget to come and take advantage of that? But at least you may never take a call, and at least you get that. And then if you offer things like the advocacy, the marketing and branding things, speakerships, case studies, you can still leverage them for those things, which are fun for them. And they're not only fun — they build somebody's resume, they're a personal brand developer as well as an organizational brand developer. So your organization benefits, their organization benefits, and they as individuals benefit.

So just because you're not giving them references, where they might be able to earn other types of benefits, doesn't mean you can't give them some perks that will keep them engaged and keep them happy — to your whole point, and not get them angry with you for not letting them earn any points or benefits or anything. But be upfront from the beginning: we may need you once, we may need you twice, we may need you never, we don't know. But you'll get this at any rate, and we can still do all of these other things with you.

Host 34:52
Amazing. Thank you very much, Steven. Now, changing a little bit and talking about 2023 — and before 2023, actually, we are still in 2022 and have a whole month ahead of us, right? A lot of support to sales and marketing folks, organizations, planning, lots going on. So I would like to start this section by asking you, if you could share, what you tried to achieve this year, and some lessons that you learned that you can share with our audience.

Steven Woodward 35:31
Sure. So in my current role, you have to bear in mind that my first day was September 26th, so basically Q4 of 2022 is my first 90 days. But what I've been working on, as I said earlier, is figuring out ways to improve our NPS and KLAS scores, improve our response rates — which are actually pretty good, but we want to be better, we want the scores to be better — and make sure we're not over-surveying customers. So we're looking at that.

And then making some improvements to our existing CAB, which is really kind of an easy lift, because everybody agrees it needs improvements in certain areas, and we're going to make those for 2023. We had too many people on it. We ask people to join for a three-year stint, so we are losing some people from when they first stood it up a few years ago, and we're only going to replace a few of those to try to keep it at a smaller level. We would like to do at least one, if not two, in-person meetings a year, so I'm busily trying to plan all that, so we can have the first meeting of the year in February and have that in person. So that's a lot of planning there.

And then I'm putting together the foundations of a reference and advocacy program. I actually presented that information to my boss this morning, not long before we got together, and he likes everything. We have a team meeting with sales next week, and I'm going to roll it out to them at a high level. Once we get all of our approvals and budgets, we will be formally introducing it in January at our annual sales meeting, and the goal is to have 10 clients enrolled as program participants by the end of Q1. So that's kind of my busy first three months of work.

Host 37:33
Excellent, that's good. And now, about the planning for 2023, what is, in your opinion, that one thing or two things that no one should miss in their planning?

Steven Woodward 37:46
Make sure your goals are aligned with the organizational goals. So, we offer some services that are manual, and we can do them digitally. I'm going to be really simple here: our big push in 2023 and beyond is to convert our customers to the digital experience. That is front of mind as I stand up a reference and advocacy program, because I want to make sure we've got some customers that have already transitioned to digital, they are wildly happy, and I want to make sure I've got those folks in the program. But I also have to pay deference to the folks that aren't ready to do that yet, and have the people that are using it more as a service, so I've got to have a few of those in the program.

We just came out with a five-year plan. Ciox was acquired by a company called Datavant last year, so we're sort of blending the two companies, and we've got a five-year plan for that. So I'm looking at that to see how the advocacy program, especially from the advocacy position, can help us build that brand. I'm really pushing for having a presence at events where we're doing joint presentations with our clients.

And then just looking at other programs that we might want to develop, and that we're thinking about developing — the one that our SVP of Provider Marketing is responsible for, and how that five-year plan impacts what we're doing there. That's going to be a C-level program, and even though she owns it, I am going to be working with her on that.

So: know what the company plan is, know what the company strategy is, and make sure that your programs are aligned and can help achieve those goals. I would say that's probably your number one mission.

Host 39:50
That's good. And all about achieving goals, here goes the less serious question, at least for today, which is: how should customer marketers measure success in 2023, in your opinion?

Steven Woodward 40:07
Again, I think that's something where you have to look at your unique business model and the clients you work with. For me, the top things that I want to be able to report out on show the value that the program is bringing to the organization, as well as the value that the program is bringing to the clients.

I want to look at win rates. From an organizational perspective, does providing a reference improve our win rate? Does providing more than one reference bring it up that much more? Because that's what I've learned in other companies.

I want to be able to report on the type of reference. Is an in-person meeting more effective than a phone call? And is an in-person meeting practical in our world? At Optum, in-person meetings were a big deal, but we were talking multimillion-dollar — like tens of millions of dollars — big money, so a lengthy in-person meeting made a lot of sense. But so did phone calls in a lot of cases.

I also want to be able to report out on the impact of the timing of a reference. One of the things we learned at Optum was — we use Salesforce, as many organizations do — and we learned there that references done at stage three were highly impactful. The win rate at stage three was much higher than if it was at stage one or two or beyond stage three. So I want to start digging into the data and looking at stuff like that, so I can report out on things that will be helpful.

And then, of course, be able to report out on the revenue influence. So, we did this many references, here was the win rate, here was the win rate without a reference, here's the difference in money we made.

Host 42:08
Love it. Excellent. So this very last question is a fun question. If you were to put a phrase on a mug or a shirt about customer marketing, what would that phrase be?

Steven Woodward 42:20
Oh, it's probably hokey, but something like, "I advocate for advocacy." Or, "Don't take my word for it — talk to my customers."

Host 42:33
Love it. Customers trust other customers, right? Okay, no comments. That's one of the things that we say — we will not ask for an explanation.

Thank you very much, Steven. It was a pleasure to have you on the show, and we hope to do it again, maybe in another future episode about metrics specifically, or to see how your program is going in 2023. Hope to have you with us on the show soon.

Steven Woodward 42:59
We'd love to do that, and thank you so much for this opportunity. It's been a pleasure.

Host 42:59
All right, thank you everyone, and see you next time. Bye.

Host 43:10
This episode was brought to you by Wings4U, helping global B2B tech brands unleash the power of their customers' voice. Wings4U customer stories and advocacy programs help you deepen customer relationships, increase retention, and close more deals faster.