Episode 3: The 4C framework for turning customers into advocates

Host 0:00
Welcome to The Advocast, where we discuss all things customer advocacy. Discover the latest trends, best practices, and tangible advice as we talk to some of the brightest and sharpest professionals in the industry. Learn how to turn your customers into advocates to drive sales leads and make a positive impact on revenue.

Host 0:28
Hi everyone. Today I'm thrilled to have Callie Rojewski with us on the show. Hi Callie, how are you doing?

Callie Rojewski 0:35
Good, how are you?

Host 0:38
Good, thank you. Today we have a podcast prepared with lots of tips and experience from Callie, and we are very happy to have you here to share all of your knowledge and experience from your past years. Callie is a customer marketing manager at Guru, and we will start by talking about Guru, your company. So the first question the listeners would like to know is: what's Guru, and what's Guru's value proposition?

Callie Rojewski 1:09
Certainly. So, as Pablo said, my name is Callie. I'm the customer marketing manager at Guru Technologies, and Guru is a knowledge management platform that really serves as a company wiki, so that every single company can organize the information employees need to do their jobs, feel successful, and get the information they need all within their workflows. Our platform really supports internal communications and has been supporting teams in their transition to remote work, just making sure that all teams, especially global teams, can remain on the same page and stay updated together.

Host 1:54
Nice. And one question about this: does it play nice with other tools like Teams and Slack? Is it going to replace Teams and Slack and similar tools, or no?

Callie Rojewski 2:05
That's a great question. So Guru has many integrations, including Slack and Microsoft Teams. We also work with Zoom. We have a ton of automations with Zapier and Workato as well. But it's not meant to replace Slack or Teams by any means.

What it does support, and what it does replace, is all of those little pieces of information that might be living in email, in Slack, in Google Docs. It gives you a space for your company to have a central source of knowledge, a central source of truth. For us, for example, we document all of our project information in there, all of our company OKRs, all of our benefits information, everything employees need to know for onboarding and offboarding. It's all accessible in one main area within your browser, and then from there it integrates into other areas of your workplace, like you mentioned — Slack, Microsoft Teams, as well as Salesforce. The list goes on and on. But I'd say if it replaces anything, it would be the time in your day that you spend chasing down all that information you need to do your job.

Host 3:18
Yeah, I totally hear you. I'm coming also from big enterprises, and we all know that information is all over the place. We never know where it is when you need it, right? It's really difficult to find, just because every team picks any place they want, any platform.

Callie Rojewski 3:34
Exactly.

Host 3:35
Excellent. So how does a normal day look like at Guru for you?

Callie Rojewski 3:41
Yeah, so as the customer marketing manager at Guru, on a day-to-day basis my work really focuses on finding customer advocates who are doing cool and unique things with Guru, lifting up their story, and helping them connect with each other and build community.

There's definitely work that I do internally with the team as well, to socialize these stories once they're captured and make sure the internal team — from the marketing team to the sales team to the customer success team — is connected back to these customer stories and elevating them in the ways that they can, in the channels they own. But on a daily basis it's really about managing that pipeline and fostering those programs and channels that make top Guru customers feel comfortable to share their story, and also feel connected to each other and back to the Guru team.

Host 4:41
Good. And I heard you mention customer stories, so you have a customer stories or evidence program in place, right? Is it a global program, or is it focused on a specific country or specific industry?

Callie Rojewski 4:55
Yep, great question. So our customers are global. They have offices all over the world. We work with customers based in Europe and Asia. So the speaker pipeline that I work with, the customers I work with, they're based wherever, but the content that we create is mostly — I would say, like, 100% — English-based. I know that's not the case for other companies, and I have seen other customer marketers do some really cool things when it comes to multilingual content. But for us, even if we work with stakeholders in other countries, it's translated largely to English.

Host 5:40
Perfect, excellent. You also mentioned something about communities, but we can talk about this later in the episode. We still have so much to cover, and I would like to know something else just before that, to keep talking about you and knowing you a little bit better, so our listeners can get to know you better. Let's talk about your career highlights. So first of all: how did you get into the customer marketing and advocacy universe?

Callie Rojewski 6:12
That's a great question. I feel like customer marketing found me at the right time, but when you look back at what I actually did for my career, it was there all along.

I started off freelancing and supporting small businesses and startups around brand strategy and marketing strategy, because a lot of the problems that I was seeing within my own community of business owners and entrepreneurs where I lived was that people felt really disempowered around their marketing strategies to connect with their customers and have this dialogue, this two-way street around the problems they were solving.

That work took me to a nonprofit called B Lab, which certifies B Corporations. They're socially and environmentally responsible businesses — for-profit businesses trying to create positive impact within their business structure. In that role I played a typical marketing role, but it involved doing social media and community activation campaigns to work with our influential B Corporations, and actually B Corporations of all different segments of our community, to raise public awareness about what B Corporations are and why consumers should support them.

A lot of the campaigns that I ran were, I would say, kind of grassroots, and more just programmatic engagement. We did a lot of things with little budget to see how far we could get based off of folks' positive affinity for the movement, and we got pretty far. We did a bunch of global social media campaigns, and then my work there culminated in a big public awareness campaign we did called Vote for B Corp, educating consumers in the US and Canada around how they could vote with their wallet, vote with their time and talent, towards companies that shared similar values as them.

All of that work really allowed me to see the benefit of working with a community, catering to segmented audience members of that big community that you're serving, and working with them specifically to identify their needs and the mutual value exchange, to all amplify a shared message. So that led me to customer marketing and the work that I do today, now in the tech industry.

Host 8:49
That's so interesting. I love it. And by the way, I would love to have an episode just about B Corp. Maybe for the future, I would love to

Callie Rojewski 9:00
absolutely.

Host 9:01
There are lots of experiences, right?

Callie Rojewski 9:02
Yes.

Host 9:03
This community of companies you mentioned — was it based in the US?

Callie Rojewski 9:06
Well, B Corporations are global. There are global offices. We work with people in Brazil. There was an office in South Africa, and China. It's global, and each global region manages those B Corps within their region, and then the B Corp applications get processed all through one certifying body of the nonprofit.

Host 9:37
Excellent. I think that this is a topic for a whole new episode, so let's do that. So, I'd like to know what makes you tick within the customer marketing world.

Callie Rojewski 9:51
Right, I think this is such a great question, and I'm going to answer it in two ways.

There's something that makes me click with the customer marketing world, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this, and that's the relationship aspect of what we do. I love that out of every type of marketer everywhere, customer marketers are uniquely positioned to be on the front lines of the voice of the customer and infuse those learnings, that feedback, those highlights and desires back to the team on many levels — whether that's the go-to-market team that's incorporating more messaging to get more potential customers in the door, or the product team that is looking to iterate on the product based on what customers in the market are saying they need the most. So that's what I love about customer marketing, and it makes me feel really positive about it in general: being able to build relationships, being able to be that spark internally and externally.

But when I think of the word "tick," I think of what you wish could be improved. So I think within the customer marketing world, we're so lucky that we are the people bridging the gap in those relationships, and I think there's so much more improvement that could happen for the industry in solidifying the role of a customer marketer and keeping it organized within an entire company. I've really valued connecting with other customer marketers and learning how they organize their work and champion it internally.

Host 11:34
Excellent, excellent. That's very interesting. That's one of the things that I love also about customer advocacy: that we are working with so many departments. We are impacting sales, marketing, and sometimes — depending on how comprehensive your program is, in terms of the stage and maturity of the program — you can even impact HR and investor relations. So the areas of impact are so vast. And also the customers, right? You get to know the best customers, the ones that are just in love with your product. That's one of the things that I value myself as well, finding the heroes behind these stories. There's always a hero story coming from a customer, and we're all the time trying to locate those stories, basically.

Callie Rojewski 12:36
Yes, I love that you called out that word "hero." That comes up a lot, especially when you're thinking about highlighting advocates. And I love that customer marketers in particular are able to create that experience from what I like to say is day zero to day hero. So before somebody even knows about your brand, customer marketers are involved within that full customer journey, which makes it a really powerful and exciting role to be a part of — especially heading into a new version of the economy, where people have different values and are prioritizing different things first. It certainly comes with its own challenges, but anytime you're able to position somebody who's been working hard and who deserves to be highlighted as a hero, it's a good time for customer marketers.

Host 13:31
So agree. Okay, so let's switch the conversation a little bit and talk about the how. We talked about many things that you do, but we'd like to understand how you do that. Last time we spoke, you mentioned the framework that you've been developing since your early days in this area, and we're calling it the 4C framework, right? That's how you name it officially.

Callie Rojewski 13:57
Yes, the 4C

Host 13:58
framework.

Callie Rojewski 14:00
Yep, the 4C framework. This is something that I have developed because a customer marketer's role encompasses that full customer journey. Customer journeys are dense. Customer journeys can be captured for every single facet of a company's experience, like you mentioned, from HR to product. So I found that leveraging this framework when it comes to working with internal stakeholders and designing your programs at large helps you make sure that you're checking the boxes to know that your foundation is really strong in the experience that you're delivering to your customers.

Host 14:42
Great. So for the audience, I would like to just mention that the 4Cs are community, communication, consistency, and celebration.

Callie Rojewski 14:52
Yes, exactly.

Host 14:53
Let's deep dive into those concepts that you created. So one of the questions that I'd like to ask you is: to make your team's life easier, you created the 4C framework about customer experience. What is it about?

Callie Rojewski 15:12
Yes. So I can explain why those 4Cs are chosen specifically, but as I mentioned, the reason that I created it, to make our lives easier, is so we're all communicating from this common ground.

Customer experience means different things to different people on your team, because they own different parts of that customer journey. Your sales team is worried about the customer experience of a prospect closing and then becoming a customer and becoming successful with the product. Your customer success team cares about a customer becoming successful with the product and expanding. There are so many touchpoints along a customer journey that when you're working with those teams, mapping that journey out and layering exceptional experiences and advocacy on top of it, having something to come back to, to root people in the why of what you're doing and the how you're going to do it, is important.

So the 4Cs encompass community, communication, consistency, and celebration. I'm going to start with communication and consistency. When you're thinking about a customer's full journey — communication: are you telling them what they need to know, when they need to know it, in order for them to be successful? So that looks like, at the top of the funnel when they're getting to know your brand — and I'll use Guru as an example — are you telling them what a single source of truth is, if you're trying to get them to understand the value of putting their information all in one place? As they go along in their journey to purchase Guru and expand with Guru and become successful with Guru, are you communicating to them more in-depth ways that they can use the product and succeed?

Consistency comes into play as well when you're looking at this full picture. Is the customer experiencing things in a way that they're going to be able to build a relationship with? Are they hearing things the same way over time, in a repeated manner that they can really remember? Does your brand look the same at the beginning of their journey, when they find a blog post from you, as it does within the product itself and deeper into the help center? Do the relationships that your customer has with your team mirror the values of your company that you portray online? All of those things are important when it comes to developing this relationship with the customer and turning them into an advocate.

And then I'll touch on community and celebration as well. If you think about the full customer journey — you're telling your customers what they need to know, you're giving them this consistent experience that they can really wrap their arms around and get to know and hold on to — are you developing relationships even further and giving them a space to grow through community elements? Whether that's through human-to-human connection with your brand, maybe it's with your team, maybe it's with the people they get to know along the way. If you have a completely self-serve journey, maybe it's just with people's pictures or faces that they can relate to popping up, giving them information they need. And then, are they able to develop peer-to-peer relationships, or find common ground with other people going through the same journey as them?

Community really elevates any experience to have more meaning, more connection, and more reason why somebody should go through something. We've seen a lot of value in developing a community for our Guru customers, because it allows people who are taking on a big initiative for the betterment of their company's future to connect with each other and brainstorm and build off ideas and gain momentum from there. Community is such a powerful piece and strategy for customer marketers and customer advocacy managers everywhere — which could be a whole different podcast.

And then lastly I'll just close the loop with celebration. Celebration is a really beautiful thing that customer marketers and advocacy managers are uniquely positioned to deliver on. If you're looking at that whole entire customer journey: where are your light bulb moments happening?

Callie Rojewski 19:43
Where are these moments where you're surprising and delighting your customer, that spark their positive affinity with your brand and position you as somebody they're always going to think warmly of because of that surprise-and-delight moment?

For some brands that might look like: after a customer purchases the product, you send them a swag package with socks and a notebook to celebrate their investment in your product. For others, it could look like once a customer joins a community, getting a direct message from a product team member welcoming them to leave product feedback. There are so many little moments that you can create along the customer journey that allow this person to feel special, feel recognized, feel celebrated.

And even another example goes back to that hero journey we were talking about, right? A celebration element could be, once a customer is super successful, highlighting them in a case study, positioning them as a hero for the work that they've accomplished and the success they've achieved.

So looking at your entire customer journey with those four lenses is really going to help you as a customer marketer make sure that you're working with your stakeholders internally to deliver this exceptional external experience. And it also supports the way that you layer and organize your work, your campaigns, and your programming, to make sure that you're being that bridge for customers and your internal team.

Host 21:19
Perfect. So what I'm hearing is that it's complex, first of all. It's not that communication means one thing or community means one thing. If you wanted to, you could have an entire role based just on community, or just on communication. But the 4Cs, what I'm hearing, are like a framework, as you said, so you don't forget any of those important areas, because all of them are necessary. You cannot leave even one of them out, because then you would not get to the end — which would be maybe the celebration, if you can call it an end on the journey.

Because, as you say, with communication you're mentioning something very interesting, which is a lot about how to realize the marketing promise. You develop the product that can bring a lot of benefits to the customers, and in that pillar is when you are telling the customer how to do it, how to realize all this value. Is that right — am I interpreting it correctly?

Callie Rojewski 22:23
Yes. Each C is pretty dense, but the way that every company organizes their customer journey, you're going to have multiple points that your team is organized around. So for example, our product marketing team gathers insights from customers at every stage. They're listening to what's going on in the market to develop our primary messaging, but they're more focused on raising awareness and getting those light bulb moments to happen with people at the top of the funnel — who are learning about Guru, who are trying to Google what to do because all of their information lives all over the place and they can't stay on the same page and their team can't communicate with each other.

That's a little bit of a different focus than, say, a customer success manager who's working with a Guru customer specifically to maximize their use of the product, to teach them Guru analytics to report back to their C-suite team. But it all connects, because as a customer marketer, those different team members who own those certain parts of the customer journey are your best friends and are who you need to work with to make sure that advocate momentum is being built at every stage.

So I do recommend, at every company, to anybody who's listening: if they don't already have a customer journey mapped, as a customer marketer you're really well positioned to be that person to map it. You can work in tandem with the customer success team, but having a shared definition of what your customer journey looks like, and something to point back to, to understand who comes in where, is really helpful. And then as a customer marketer, you're going to be really successful if you can say, okay, at each one of those, say, six points, we're delivering in this way consistently to customers. Because it is going to be challenging to build advocates with a really positive brand affinity if there are gaps within that.

Host 24:26
Yeah, love it, love it. Thank you for clarifying that — that was exactly my question. And now I'd like to invite you to pick one of those Cs and tell us a story that comes from your experience. My first question is: do you have a favorite C?

Callie Rojewski 24:44
So I don't know if I can say that I have a favorite C. I will say that I've really enjoyed organizing my work using this. And there's a little personal fun fact about it: obviously, my name starts with a C, and I have four sisters whose names start with C too. So every time I hear "the 4Cs," it makes me think of my family, which makes me happy.

But yeah, I will share an example, and I think that this is the perfect time to expand on the community example. In my experience at Guru, I was brought on three-plus years ago to create an advocate program and focus specifically on case study outputs.

Anybody who's within the customer marketing and advocacy world, you see certain similarities in the way people build their programs. There's almost a playbook around giving your advocates a name, developing challenges for them that align to what your company's needs are. But for me, what I did in developing that was an initial round of interviews internally and externally, to really understand what the core value proposition and value exchange was, both for our internal teams and our customers.

Our internal teams were saying that they needed more and more case studies, but once we got down to specifics, that format of a story looked a little different. And for our advocates, what they were saying they wanted — what would give them the most value back from Guru — wasn't being branded a certain way, and wasn't being highlighted as an individual, so much as that they wanted to connect with other peers. They wanted to network, they wanted to get inspiration from each other. And this tracked with the persona that we were working with, because oftentimes people who use Guru are maybe one person, maybe they have a smaller team, but they're bought into a better way of doing things, and they still need to shepherd their company into this light, into this better, more organized way of staying on the same page.

So we peeled back from going full force investing in this branded advocacy program, and instead pivoted to creating this community experience where advocates could connect with each other, learn from each other, and have relationships directly back to the Guru product team themselves, to give feedback and network with the people from Guru that they wanted to talk with.

So we started more loosely giving our advocate calls to action. We peeled back from naming it a certain brand name. We launched a community on Slack and built habits for people to connect with each other around certain topics. We dripped content within there to increase engagement. And then we also developed a community platform for customers to share their stories, but specifically in a way that felt most productive, most impactful, and most comfortable to them — and that was our user group program. Those stories made their way back to our go-to-market team so that they could leverage them.

But most importantly, what we did there was go back and look at what customers and our internal team needed the most, and then really invest in developing out that community. Because now that community, while it started on Slack, while it started with these user group programs, has turned into a more robust community on the inSided platform. Our monthly user group programs feature more than one speaker and more than one customer story that's being shared — all because we designed it around our core needs. And that wouldn't have happened if we didn't say, okay, we know community is an important element, let's ask people about this, let's check in on whether that's the most important element to them. And even if it wasn't, even if our customers had said something different, we would still have developed ways for them to connect with each other and connect with the team. But because we went back to use those 4Cs, checked that box, and figured out that it was the most important thing, we were able to then invest correctly from there.

Host 29:12
Excellent, that's amazing. So, continuing with the Cs, I'd like to ask you: what have been the main challenges and the most satisfying outcomes for each C?

Callie Rojewski 29:26
So, for the main challenge for each C, I feel like it's probably better to tackle this question at a higher level, because it's consistent across all of them. And that is being able to champion that internal alignment along the customer journey, to make sure that you're successfully capturing what's happening, that everybody's successfully educated on what's happening currently across the entire journey, and that if you're interested in making changes, those changes are going to be matched along each point in the customer journey and that everybody's going to know about them. So it's awareness and alignment across your internal stakeholders to really deliver on that excellent experience.

And if you get down to the nitty-gritty of communication, consistency, community, celebration — further challenges, beyond aligning stakeholders and staying on the same page, are making sure everybody's aligned over time as we iterate, and that we have enough resources to deliver that well. It takes resources to enable the team around internal communications and education on what everybody's doing and what the focus is for each part of the customer journey. It takes resources and investment into branding to make sure that the look and feel of everything is consistent, that the writing voice and all of the content you deliver is consistent.

So I would say the main challenges hold true: alignment and internal communication, and making sure your team is structured in a way where they're comfortable communicating, they all have a shared mission of being customer-centered, putting the customer first, having empathy for the customer, and that there are internal structures and ways for them to communicate and work together and collaborate over time to deliver that better and better and better, as more customer learnings and advocates rise up and come into play.

And then for the second piece of your question, around the most satisfying outcome — again, we can look at this as a group, but there is nothing more satisfying than knowing that you're delivering this exceptional customer experience, and hearing that reflected back to you in the customer's feedback and positive affinity for your brand. If your team can achieve that alignment and work together to collaborate, that's a reflection of everybody's work, that's a reflection of the product that you're delivering, and all of the care and time and energy that you're putting into your customer.

And as customer marketers, we're again on the front lines of that. We're the bridge, we're sparking people, and we're the sparks ourselves. But when you hear from a customer that their lives changed because of the product, or they loved working with so-and-so team member, or they just felt so positively about how the product impacted their work life that they told all of their friends and family about it, or posted on LinkedIn — that makes all of this worth it. That makes all the alignment, all of the effort to lay that foundation, worth it, because that happens more and more and more. It's like a flywheel effect, or one of those hockey-stick growth effects, once you know that you have that really solid foundation in place that can grow with your customers' needs.

Host 32:55
Excellent. And you make it sound very simple, but we know that there's a lot of effort from you and your team behind it, and I'm sure that you faced some blockers and challenges in the journey. You mentioned some of them, right? Maybe having this consistency across all the teams is one of them. But if you had to start over right now, fresh and new, what would you do differently?

Callie Rojewski 33:21
That's a great question. Hindsight is always 20/20, and I've been thinking about this a lot, because I recently met with a bunch of customer marketers at a customer marketing conference, and we were all in that position to look back at our programs and say what could have been different, and learn from each other.

For me specifically, I'll speak to my work at Guru. I think looking back, investing more in that team enablement angle would have been worth it, and would have amplified my work and supported the growth of the amount of stories we gather and where they go even more successfully.

When we gather customer stories, say from those user groups, those stories then get put back into our Guru platform for the team to use. But the team needs some coaching and nurturing to feel really confident using those customer stories, especially if they're mentioning them on the fly with customers or with a new prospect. They want to be able to fully speak to the details before the customer asks for even more details.

So I think what I would have done, looking back, was get super clear on that recurring cadence of internal enablement around these stories, and create an even stronger program that has recurring communications and builds recurring habits for the internal team to really leverage customer stories externally with customers.

We built this really simplified call to action for somebody to share their story. There are different ways that, if a customer is primed to share their story — say they're an advocate that deserves to be spotlighted, a hero — they can participate in a way that works best for them, all the way up to this top-of-the-mountain case study version that's published on our site. Looking backwards, while we have that path defined out, I would have put more investment — and even looking into the future, I plan to put more investment — in making sure that journey is self-serve for a customer. So at every point they could deliver the content to us, even fill it out themselves, or fill out a question-and-answer post in the community, so that the content isn't necessarily blocked by our team, and at every single point a customer has the ability to share their positive sentiment externally and get that word of mouth out there.

For example — and this is something I'm sure any customer marketer listening has in common with their case study programs — to get a customer case study written, there's some sort of interview you do with your customer along the way that helps them structure their story and helps you get the information you need. In my ideal world, even though I'm interviewing customers, transcribing that interview, and clipping up those videos to distribute after, I would love to see us get to a point where we're really leaning into this user-generated content experience that other brands, like direct-to-consumer brands, have with customers on social media. It just needs to be flipped and more catered to this B2B software world that I'm in. So that's what I'm experimenting with.

Yeah, the answer is basically: more programmatically and more strongly enforce those recurring behaviors that you want people to do, and then ungate positive sentiment, so that positive quotes, positive word of mouth, and positive affinity are never just sitting within your email inbox, within your Zoom, within your internal Slack, within even your team and the customer itself. It's always published as far as it could go.

Host 37:17
That's so interesting. That's one of the beautiful things that I personally feel about this area that we are developing. Nothing is completely written. We are all developing this area, and the tips and insights that you're bringing to this podcast — this is amazing. I never thought of that. Thank you for bringing this approach, and for thinking about how to share this experience, as you say, maybe imitating the consumer market, and bringing that authenticity to the B2B world.

Callie Rojewski 37:54
Exactly.

Host 37:55
That's amazing. So I think that we are approaching the end of this episode, and I have one last question: tips for people that are starting in this area. We know that this market is growing rapidly — in the past three or four years it's been accelerating — and so there are lots of new people joining this market. What's the message, or the best advice, that you'd give to newcomers to find joy in the adventure?

Callie Rojewski 38:28
I love that question. And yes, this position is definitely growing, and industry awareness of the value that it can serve is growing.

My advice to customer marketers or advocacy managers tackling these challenges in their career, to find joy: I would say it's important that, while you're the steward of the larger customer journey, you make sure that you're defining and focusing your work on which part is going to be most impactful for your company at that time. It's always hard to tie relationship sentiment, or even content, to bottom-line impact — I find that especially when you're also in charge of creating the content and building relationships and doing all the things at once. But you will never go wrong by working backwards from the company's OKRs and what's most important to them, to be able to prove the value of your work.

Because what I see with some people — and this is the other layer of my tip — is that you come into a company, and your company has a ton of ideas of what customer marketing or advocacy means to them and the special things that you should deliver. You spin up all of these things, but you don't spend the time making sure that they're all rooted in impact, that they're rooted in the value that your customers and your internal stakeholders really need, which you've validated by interviewing them or surveying them. And you spin up all these things that, at the end of the day, a company may decide not to invest in because they don't see the ROI from it.

Customer marketers, what you own is long-term relationship impact. And so with any sort of longer-term investment, you need to be able to explain what the impact is, even if that longer-term investment is still coming to fruition — how it relates and how it supports what your company does. It's important to be able to say that, or know that.

And in the customer marketing community, there are a ton of people out there who have given talks or spoken to how to do this. Even going back to the 4Cs, for each element, if you're leveraging that, you can measure those different elements and how successful they are. But that would be my tip: you will find more joy in what you're doing when you're able to define the impact for your customer and for your company from day

Host 41:00
one. And for your career, right? It's also about your own career, achieving your goals as well.

That was amazing. So, Callie Rojewski, it was lovely to have you on the show today. I'm sure that we have so much to learn from you, and we would love to invite you for future episodes to go a little bit deeper into maybe one of the Cs — part of our audience would like to go deeper on the community side as well, and everything that's related to engagement. I see that you have a lot of great ideas on how to keep pushing the borders of this area, and tips for them to implement right away in their companies.

Callie Rojewski 41:46
Yes, thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited that y'all are investing in the customer marketing community, because we definitely all need to be connected to each other and support each other. So looking forward to learning from more of The Advocast episodes as well.

Host 42:07
Excellent. Thank you. See you next time.

Callie Rojewski 42:10
Thank you.

Host 42:11
Bye.

Host 42:13
This episode was brought to you by Wings4U, helping global B2B tech brands unleash the power of their customers' voice. Wings4U customer stories and advocacy programs help you deepen customer relationships, increase retention, and close more deals faster.